TEXT OF PAGES 171-213

1.	MR. ROBERT: No, Your Honor.
2.	MS. GOULD:  No, Your Honor.
3.	THE COURT:  All right. Thank you for your 
4.	testimony.
5.	  May this witness be excused?
6.	MR. ROBERT: Yes, Your Honor.
7.	MS. GOULD:  Yes, Your Honor.
8.	THE COURT: Thank you for your testimony, Miss
9.	 Dibble. And thank you, Miss Robbins.
10.	MS: ROBBINS: Thank you.
11.	THE COURT:  You may call your next witness.
12.	MR. ROBERT: Danuel Quaintance. Your Honor.
13.	THE COURT: Mr. Quaintance, please come forward and
14.	 be sworn.
15.	                   DANUEL QUAINTANCE 
16.	      after having been first duly sworn under oath,
17.	      was questioned and testified as follows:
18.	                   DIRECT EXAMINATION
19.	BY MR. ROBERT:
20.	 Q.  Tell us your name, please.
21.	 A.   Danuel Quaintance.
22.	 Q.   Mr. Quaintance, where do you live?
23.	 A.   Pima, Arizona.
24.	 Q.   You're the, you're one of the defendant's in this 
25.	case; is that right?

1.	something new there for me that gave me some inspiration, that
2.	my senior year, when the school season began the next year I
3.	went and I signed up for day school and night school, and I
4.	held a job at a drive-in.  I completed and graduated with my
5.	class that I would have graduated with normally.
6.	 Q.  So let me understand, during your junior year did you
7.	basically drop out?
8.	 A.  Yeah, I went probably 15 days of the whole year, and
9.	that probably wasn't that many hours during those days.
10.	 Q.  And you indicated that you had an experience with
11.	 marijuana which led to you finishing all that work on time to
12.	graduate on time?
13.	 A.  It gave me focus.
14.	 Q.  Okay.
15.	 A.  And then I went in the service, and while I was in
16.	 the service I had 36 weeks of training [in fixed plant] multiplex
17.	equipment, which is multiplexing 600 telephone conversations
18.	on[to] one microwave frequency.  And from there I received some
19.	chemical warfare equipment training through chemical,
20.	biological, nuclear - -
21.	 Q.  What branch of the service were you in?
22.	 A.  I was in the Army Chemical Corps.  And that, during
23.	the training we were exposed to radiation and used [a] dosiometer
24.	to find hot spots, [take Geiger] counter[s] out, and come back.  And,
25.	basically, if our patch was enough color, then we had found

1.	go back to your initial experience that you described for the
2.	Court.  Was your initial experience something that caused you
3.	to come to any philosophical conclusions about marijuana?
4.	A.  Whenever, I actually have come and gone through
5.	cannabis several times.  And my eleventh grade I was a little,
6.	you know, drinking alcohol and stuff too by that time, and
7.	that is what probably got me out of focus there.  And cannabis
8.	helped bring me back in focus. And when I was like out of
9.	focus there in Germany for a while, and cannabis helped bring
10.	me back in again.  And I was just, you know, never a party
11.	thing, with me it was more of a solitude thing.  You would
12.	smoke it, you achieve a different state of feeling.  It's a
13.	comfort that comes over you, you know, it's not a high-type of
14.	a feeling in my mind.  I have never experienced what people
15.	would call a high, I guess stoned, where you just wanted to
16.	kick back and zombi out, or whatever.  I get active and my
17.	mind becomes creative and see things basically.
18.	Q.  All right.
19.	         THE COURT:  Could you speak into the microphone a
20.	little more, Mr. Quaintance?  I'm having difficulty hearing
21.	you?  Thank you.
22.	Q.  This is during a time when a lot of people were
23.	probably experimenting with cannabis, but you were, and most
24.	of them were doing it probably for entertainment or
25.	recreation?

1.	so when I had - - in '84 I had a pancreatic shutdown, and I
2.	used it probably medicinally more so than anything.  At that
3.	time I still hadn't had a profound vision.  I went back to
4.	work.  And then in '90 I had a pancreatic major attack, and
5.	that's when I had to quit working.  And I was laying on the
6.	couch, praying for an end, it was just so miserable, intense
7.	pains that I was going through. And I would wake up in the
8.	middle of the night and I would have verses and books of the 
9.	Bible - -
10.	Q.  I'm sorry, go ahead.
11.	A.  I would have verses and books of the Bible, and I
12.	mean I'd just wake up and I'd open up and here would be
13.	something about cannabis right there, or not necessarily
14.	cannabis always, but something maybe about the language, how
15.	there's like a hidden language inside the Bible that a lot of
16.	people don't understand, like fruits.
17.	Q.  Okay.  Let's take this in smaller bites.  First I
18.	want to go back to 1984, because you talked about a medical
19.	incident that happened then.  You also had a legal incident in
20.	'84, didn't you?
21.	A.  '84, yes, sir.
22.	Q.  Tell us a little bit about that, please.
23.	A.  Well, in '84 our house was invaded for cannabis, and
24.	I, we got six months probation on it.  And the probation
25.	officer either instructed us that we would take, have to be

1.	fellowship, and I was actually president of that for a couple
2.	of years, and gave sermons.  So I was pretty familiar with the
3.	Bible.  And even at that time I had some different
4.	interpretations of some of the texts than some of the other 
5.	people had revealed, or whatever.
6.	Q.  And at what age were you involved in that
7.	organization?
8.	A.  That was 16, 17, a couple of years, right in that 
9.	area there, probably.
10.	Q.  So you were pretty heavily involved in that church?
11.	A.  Yes.
12.	 Q.  When was  - -
13.	 A.  I was, also at that time I was Eagle Scout, Order of
14.	the Arrow[ it's an] Honorary [Campers] Society.  And I was junior
15.	assistant scout master, I had gone through actually [since] 12 years
16.	[old], before being an assistant scout master; leadership
17.	of people basically.
18.	 Q.  Did there come a time that you started to question
19.	the teaching of your church, not this church, but the church
20.	that you were in?
21.	 A.  Well, the [Free] Methodist church, yes, they're a fairly
22.	unstructured group, but I seen adults that were not the most
23.	moralistic acting people, and stuff.  And it wasn't a lot of
24.	guidance, I would say, from - - There was not a lot of
25.	substance in it, you know, there was more reading from a book

1.	own self.  I didn't - - wasn't out showing off.
2.	Q.  Okay.  But I mean I guess my question is, what was
3.	your belief system at that time, when you parted with the
4.	[Free] Methodist Church?
5.	A.  I, I'm having a hard time understanding.  It's just
6.	like it's so natural to me, I don't know that there's a way to
7.	explain a belief system that, you know, I believe in a karmic,
8.	I would say type, of a system where that you get what you
9.	give.  If you give out bad things to people you create
10.	thoughts in those other person's minds.  And the more minds
11.	that think negatively of you, the more of that negative energy
12.	that is being directed coming your way.  And the more positive
13.	people are thinking of you, the  greater number of those people
14.	that are thinking of you positive because of the way you touch
15.	them, the greater good comes to you.
16.	Q.   Good thoughts, good words, good deeds?
17.	A.   Good thoughts, good words, good deeds, yes.
18.	Q.  I guess - - let me ask it this way.  Was there, for
19.	example, if a person got completely fed up with their
20.	Christian institutional church but wanted to continue to be
21.	Christian in their doctrine, they might go, be monastic with
22.	the Bible, in other words, follow those teaching and study in
23.	that way.  Was there a doctrine or book, or a  -- and that is
24.	what I mean by belief system, that you were connected with at
25.	that time?

1.	Q.  And am I to understand that you translated texts from
2.	those ancient languages?
3.	A.  I have done some, yes. When I have a question,
4.	specifically with that, the hemp, haoma issue, I constantly
5.	attempt to prove myself. You know, is this real?  Is this the
6.	ultimate truth?  And that's what I find, no matter which way I
7.	go.  And it's so difficult to try to convince people of this
8.	truth, they want to see a mountain of evidence, and I continue
9.	to explore to try to find that mountain of evidence to show
10.	them.
11.	Q.  All right. Well, let's back up, because I want to
12.	get to the point at which you begin to develop your
13.	philosophies, your religious beliefs.  But, so you, you're
14.	starting with the Bible and you're going back, and back, and
15.	back, and tell us, just briefly give us, if you can, an
16.	overview of the text that that progression, regression in
17.	time, took you through?
18.	A.  Well, I was seeking - -
19.	       THE COURT:  Excuse me. I think we'll probably have
20.	to break now.  We'll go to our 11:00 o'clock hearing next.
21.	       Counsel, before you leave, I did receive an e-mail
22.	that we may have some time tomorrow morning. Before you go
23.	check out of your hotels, let me ask you about that.  I don't
24.	know how much time you're going to need, I mean if tomorrow
25.	morning will help, if tomorrow morning will resolve, you know,

1.	(Court stood in recess.)
2.	                       AFTERNOON SESSION
3.	           THE COURT: We're back on the record in U.S.A. versus
4.	Quaintance, 05-6538.  Are we all ready to proceed?
5.	           MR. MARTINEZ:  Yes, Your Honor.
6.	           MR. ROBERT:  Yes, Your Honor.
7.	                 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
8.	BY MR. ROBERT:
9.	Q.  Mr. Quaintance, before we broke we were talking about
10.	the steps along your path from where you started in your
11.	religious life; what you told us was the [Free] Methodist Church
12.	to where you are now.  And if I'm not mistaken, I think where
13.	we left off was, in discussing what happened, I think you said
14.	in '91, when you were having a medical crisis and you
15.	consulted the Bible and then you worked your way back, and
16.	let's take it from there. You were seeking older texts?
17.	A.   Yes, to find more relevance.  I was seeking the 
18.	ultimate truth, because it's, in the King James version of the
19.	Bible there is so many interpretations from numerous groups, I
20.	have not only been in the [Free] Methodist, I've also attended
21.	church in the Baptist and Presbyterians, I've gone into other
22.	ones just to see the differences, and there was really not a
23.	lot of difference, they all used the King James version of the
24.	Bible. It's Primarily a little different interpretations, a
25.	lot of people have different interpretations of the versions.

1.	your diet requires them, and there's only a few places that
2.	you can get them, it doesn't break down. A lot of times in
3.	your nutrition you can eat anything and it's converted to the
4.	chemicals your body needs, but essential fatty acids, you have
5.	to get it from certain food substances. And only chicken or
6.	poultry and fish, cannabis or hemp seed, are about the highest
7.	in those [naturally]; cannabis and flax seed are the two 
8.	highest of the Omega 3 [and] six essential fatty acids.
9.	Q. Where did you learn about these things?
10.	A.  Research.
11.	Q.  All right.
12.	A.  Well, Dr. Roberta Hamilton, we had a monastery over
13.	in England and he was a friend with Dr. Roberta Hamilton, a
14.	professor at UCLA, and she is a nutritional expert and done a
15.	lot of study with the hemp seed, and she kind of advised me
16.	that if I want to - - well, actually I was laying down sick one
17.	day, and when she called and Mary told her, "Well, Dan is down
18.	sick," and she was, "Well, has he got the flu or something?"
19.	She said, "No, he's dying, you know, from this pancreatic
20.	cancer."  She said, "Oh, he needs to get on these hemp seeds
21.	or this flax [] seed oil.  If you mix flax seed oil with 
22.	cottage cheese [it] form[s] a long-strand molecule that will wrap
23.	around the antioxidant coating, from, which we get from
24.	hydrogenated vegetable fats.  At the turn of the century we,
25.	to make fat, fat products last longer on the shelf they used a

1.	learn deeper into these secrets or mysteries I would need to
2.	learn the [etymology] or roots of the words themselves, from where
3.	they came from.  And it took me all the way back into 
4.	cuneiform tablets.  And I learned, of course, that the text of
5.	the Avest[an] and the text of the King James version, they're
6.	all based, really, upon those cuneiform tablets being
7.	translated, or transliterated, from those cuneiforms into the
8.	modern language of whichever language the person is going to
9.	be reading them in. But they pretty much have a lot of the
10.	same message.
11.	           In the end time there will be [, even in] Native American
12.	religions, just about every religion out there, the promise of
13.	many[, in end] times is an unending supply of food, or the return of the
14.	original food.  It's pretty much a universal promise amongst
15.	all religions, that "My people will never have to go hungry
16.	again."  And, of course, this hemp seed is a nutritional
17.	plant, to the point that one acre can produce enough food for
18.	10 persons.  It has every single thing in one cup of hemp
19.	seeds that a person needs for their daily adult requirements
20.	[in their] diet.
21.	Q.  All right.  And so that's related to the religious
22.	text because of those end time[s] prophecies?
23.	A.  Yes, most definitely.
24.	Q   All right. Well, where, specifically, and when I say
25.	where I'm talking about what writing, did your analysis of

1.	Q.  All right.  Hom Yasht is a part of what bigger piece
2.	of work?
3.	A.  That's the Ya[s]nas or the [Yasht], that the Ya[s]na, there's
4.	like 27.
5.	Q.  And, I'm sorry, and of what larger work are the Ya[s]na
6.	a part of?
7.	A.  Avesta.
8.	Q.  Okay. And what is the Avesta?
9.	A.  The Avesta is a compilation of all of these different
10.	tablets, writings of the law, that have been carved. It's
11.	Zoroastrian sacred text, you would basically say.  They're
12.	fragments transposed from clay tablets.  The Gathas were
13.	actually hymns, which is an oral tradition of the, they claim
14.	is the very oldest, which being the very oldest doesn't make
15.	them the most accurate.  But when you're telling a story in
16.	ear-to-ear, going around the room, by the time it gets to the
17.	last person in the room it's quite different than when it
18.	began back here.  And being oral tradition like that, it is
19.	susceptible to some modifications, glorification, maybe, you
20.	know, a little bit of loss, that other translations actually
21.	are coming from clay tablets that were written-down fragments.
22.	And the [Vendidad] is attributed to Zarathrusta or the last
23.	Zarathrusta, actually.  There's 13 Zarathrustas, which
24.	Zarathrusta is, zara is like where our modern word czar comes
25.	from, it's great or magnificent, and aster is brightness or

1.	those are the ones that came and gave Jesus the gifts.  And I
2.	believe those were the gifts of healing.  He actually did an
3.	awful lot of healing on his term here on earth because he knew
4.	the secrets of like, we know that cannabis is good for
5.	glaucoma.  He made people to be able to see, the blind to see,
6.	the lame to walk.  It was good for MS patients suffering MS.
7.	And a lot of the miracles Jesus performed could be attributed
8.	to cannabis today, the medical movement and what they're
9.	attributing its ability to do.
10.	Q.  Okay.  The time frame that you described as the
11.	Zoroastrian practices as being sort of in abeyance, is that
12.	back in the time when this Colonel [Olcott] gave his lecture,
13.	you're talking about in the mid 1800's
14.	A.  No, it's, the Zoroastrian religion expands for
15.	thousands of years, several thousand years BC to 600 or later,
16.	actually all the way to the present times, that they
17.	discovered some archeological ruins in Turkmenistan, that
18.	there are some temples there and they have some pots, and they
19.	have all the [strainer]-type thing, it's like a hole in the 
20.	bottom where they would pour the pounded haoma liquid through
21.	it and separate out the milk from the fiber for their soma or
22.	their meal, basically.  They found those artifact in this
23.	archeological dig, they're dating them between 2000 and 3000.
24.	Q. BC?
25.	A.  BC.  And they chemically analyzed the contents of

1.	Q.  How do you spell the last name?
2.	A.   Oh, S-A-R-D-I-N-N-I, I believe it is.  Sardinni.
3.	Q.   Sardinni.  You've mentioned soma a couple of times,
4.	and we've already heard haoma described; what is soma?
5.	A.  Soma is, soma is in the, you know, there's a little
6.	over 100 hymns composed to it, it is a deity as well.
7.	Q.  What is the Rigaveda?
8.	A.  Pardon?
9.	Q.  What is the Rigveda?
10.	A.   Rigveda, it's the holy books of the Hindu religion
11.	in India.  And they're linguistically connected, actually they
12.	believe these people came from possibly up around where the
13.	[Sythians] were in the northern plains, just above India in the 
14.	[Turkmenistan] region, southern part of Russia area.  And one
15.	group went to the west over towards Iran, and the other group
16.	went south down into India, the ones going into India carried
17.	with them the soma, and were mainly the Hindus, and the other
18.	ones that went to the west into Iran and Iraq were the 
19.	Zoroastrians.  And the ones going south called it soma, the
20.	ones going east called it haoma; soma is a Sanskrit word.
21.	Q.  Okay.  So basically your research led you to the
22.	conclusion that the two are the same?
23.	A.  Place[?] somebody -- it's actually, I believe that
24.	haoma is  probably the older version of it.
25.	Q.  All right.  Well, you told us that there was an

1.	Q.  Is that by the number –
2.	A.  Well, it goes in an odd number.  It begins with
3.	three, then five, then seven, up to 13, I've seen the leafs on
4.	it when they grow.  And number one, fields are normally
5.	considered annual, annual crops, and there's not to many
6.	trees that are grown in fields, most of the trees are grown in
7.	an orchard, or grove, or referred to as that because it's not
8.	an annual crop.  The field are annuals and the cannabis plant
9.	grows, when they grew hemp here in America prior to the '50s,
10.	up to the mid '50s, I believe it was, you were still able to
11.	pay your taxes with the cannabis, hemp plant.  But it's, it
12.	was grow[n] real close together and it was more of like a
13.	cane, it grew up real straight because -- it depends on how
14.	it's grown how it's going to end up.  If you want it for seeds
15.	you would [seed] it with a greater distance between[,] where it
16.	could spread out and bush and have lots of bud [shoots] out of
17.	it that are loaded with the seeds, which they grew seed crops
18.	in Kentucky, and they grew hemp fiber up in the northern
19.	states real close together.  They will grow up to 12 to 18
20.	feet in a single season with just one seed [head] on top of it.
21.	Q.  All right.  So it is, can it at least be called a
22.	tree?
23.	A.  Pardon?
24.	Q.  It is, then it resembles a tree?
25.	A.  Yeah, it has branches.  I have some older writings

1.	symbolizes a shed or cave.  And then there's like a little
2.	slice coming down from the top that, it symbolizes the [rain].
3.	So these plants that are underneath the shelf are being kept
4.	dry, they're put away and stored, and that symbol is ["ma"] for
5.	hemp, it means hemp.
6.	Q.  All right.  So –
7.	A.  There's other connections as well.  In the Buddhist
8.	Tibetan dictionary the language is, Sanskrit is a monosyllabic
9.	language,  so each part -- soma would not be soma, together it
10.	would be so ma, separated.  When you put those into their
11.	Tibetan dictionary that the Buddhist put together there it
12.	comes up with hemp, is the word, right direct hemp.
13.	Q.  All right.  So as a part of the research that you
14.	did,  you're studying Sanskrit and ancient Sino-Tibetan
15.	languages?
16.	A.  Yes.  And the [huo ma];  that's why I believe, you know,
17.	in the Zoroastrian religion it's a fire-based religion.  The
18.	cannabis, hemp plant itself, when you taste it, when you make
19.	this drink, the [huo]ma, it has a hot, spicy, fiery flavor to 
20.	it.  It's hard to define whether it's like radish or jalapeno,
21.	cinnamon.  It kind of, you question what is that flavor.  And,
22.	but it's hot and spicy basically.  And the word [huo] is used
23.	today still medicinally in Chinese medicine.  You can find it
24.	on the Internet, just [huo ma][ren], and it gives you the symbol
25.	of fire, it gives you the symbol of the shed with the leaves

1.	I'm having a hard time focusing being over six months away
2.	from my deity.  [Ali][Jaffrey] is the name.  And he's written
3.	on the religion for over 40 years,  and he says it can't be
4.	anything but the cannabis plant as well.  So he concurs with
5.	me that, [Jaffrey],  I mean Bagli, and then he seems to me to be
6.	kind of confused because one part he's talking about that it
7.	is the haoma plant, you know, or haoma is essential in some of
8.	their ceremonies,  and then other parts he says that they don't
9.	do it any more.  The religion truly is all about purity. And
10.	the cannabis, the [THC],  that's where the [THC][] part of the
11.	plant comes in,  because cannabis is a [gram] positive
12.	antibiotic and anything that penicillin will kill, THC will
13.	kill, it kills streptococcus, which is responsible for
14.	pneumonia, scarlet fever, different diseases like this. And
15.	the antibacterial, the [Scythians] were some of the first wrote
16.	about the [Scythians] going into the tent and doing a
17.	purification ceremony by throwing the seeds of the cannabis
18.	plant on fire or coals,  that a lot of people don't understand
19.	what that ceremony was about.  It was a ceremony after you
20.	took care of your dead, and that when you're around a dead
21.	body there's a chance that you could get bacteria and you can
22.	get very sick from it,  a lot of people died, and it probably
23.	took them awhile to make that connection or realize that.
24.	There's two groups left down in Mexico that have that same
25.	basic thing, they live in high cliffs on some plateaus, so

1.	Q.  Okay,  let's forget -- smoking isn't necessarily a
2.	purifier, I mean --
3.	A. Yes.
4.	Q.  - - people that smoke cigarettes end up destroying
5.	their lungs with that smoke.
6.	A.  Exactly.  It's the THC is kind of [protective], in
7.	fact,  there was just some recent release, the person who had
8.	said that, who did the studies that maybe Congress used in
9.	some of its determinations that cannabis caused cancer of the
10.	lungs, and possibly even worse than cigarettes, has now
11.	changed his stance on that.  And, because they discovered,
12.	along with Dr. Robert [Melamede] at the University of Colorado up
13.	there, that THC kills those cancer cells and allows new cells
14.	to regenerate.  What cancer is, is basically it's a cell that
15.	refuses to die and it just morphs out into a [patch].
16.	Q.  Okay.  And then that gets a little beyond the scope
17.	of where we are, but I guess what I'm trying to do is to
18.	square or at least discuss the differences in opinion about
19.	what the religion says or - -
20.	A.  Well, we believe in full-body purification.  I don't
21.	know where their purification is in chants.  They've got like,
22.	they've got a more modern religion where they don't believe
23.	that they even need to have haoma in it any more.  They
24.	believe they can receive their purification sort of similar to
25.	the modern Shinto.

1.	last several generations they have been trying to eliminate
2.	it, before members, some people can become member states of
3.	the UN and stuff, they have to get the cannabis out because
4.	it's such a controversial issue to, and to not disturb other
5.	people and get along you should have to give up a little bit
6.	of your religion, and then we'll give up a little bit of our
7.	religion and then maybe we can find a medium ground where we
8.	can all be happy.  But it's actually causing a lot of conflict
9.	in the Middle East, some people are not wanting to give that 
10.	religion up.
11.	Q.  Well, a little conflict right here in this courtroom,
12.	I guess.  That brings me to something I wanted to ask you
13.	about, and this is based on something that Mr. Martinez has
14.	said a couple of times during the course of this case,  You
15.	decided at, early on, when Judge, Magistrate Judge Martinez
16.	set conditions of your release, one of which is you can't use
17.	cannabis, you can't use sacrament, and you accepted that?
18.	A.  Yes, sir.
19.	Q.  Have you used cannabis at all since that time?
20.	A.  No, sir, I give urinalysis test once to three times
21.	a week.
22.	Q.  After a period of time during which - -
23.	A.  It took six weeks for it to clear our system to where
24.	we were coming back negative on it.
25.	Q.  All right.  Mr. Martinez has suggested on occasion

1.	that point.
2.	Q.  All right.  Well, since we seem to be at this point,
3.	I want to talk about, now, a notion that I haven't been able
4.	to understand.  And that's probably because of the traditional
5.	background in which I was raised.  Cannabis is a sacrament
6.	based on your understanding of the ancient texts?
7.	A.  Not only based, but on my understanding the glossary
8.	of the Avesta.org listed as a deity, a plant, and a 
9.	sacrament.  The word haoma has those three connotations.
10.	Q.  Okay.  And then I want to talk about those things,
11.	and it's plain, obviously, we all understand that; a
12.	sacrament, we may not all agree but we can understand it?
13.	A.  Uh-huh.
14.	Q.   And again, I think you testified that it's not just
15.	your research but your personal experience that gives you that
16.	insight as well.  I want to talk about that again in a moment,
17.	but I can't grasp the notion of a plant as a deity.  People in
18.	the, in this culture, see a God who is often represented as a
19.	man to whom a person, a consciousness, a being which is
20.	typically understood as having at least a metaphorical body,
21.	but an intelligence, a brain, a consciousness, and it's hard
22.	for me to attribute those qualities to a plant.  Could you
23.	help me and the Court understand?
24.	A.  Actually, see, when I was in the Christian field of
25.	working with that Bible, and everything, there was one lesson

1.	where we both have the common [momma] of being plants, animals
2.	and insects, everything goes back to that point,  about six
3.	hundred million years ago.  And for me it's the plant having
4.	also the connection that's where our voice, our speech, our
5.	eyes, is in every person in this room has cannabinoid
6.	receptors [and] their bodies produce it without putting extra
7.	in. Some people have a lower amount of that, some people have
8.	a greater amount of that.  Some people can get a connection
9.	with themselves without any [exocannabinoids], as Mike said on
10.	the stand the other day, being in supplemental amount.
11.	Q.  And that does distinguish from those that are already
12.	in our bodies naturally?
13.	A.  They attach to the exact same receptors in our body
14.	to perform every function.  The hippocampus of the brain has
15.	the greatest number of receptors for it, and that's the 
16.	section of our brain associated with creativity.
17.	Q.  Okay.
18.	A.  And which is in the mind of the creator, to be more
19.	creative.
20.	Q.  And that leads me to another concept that you've
21.	expressed to me, which is haoma as teacher.
22.	A.  Yes, that's exactly why.
23.	Q.  Is that basically that notion?
24.	A.  That is that notion, it stimulates the creativity.
25.	It causes you to ponder. ["]I ask [no wily] questions but I

1.	Q.  All right.  So that's part of the ancient ritual 
2.	developing - -
3.	A.  The ancient ritual that, before you put it [up],
4.	because if you didn't do this right and you put it away, it
5.	would get moldy or it would get a urine smell to it, which is
6.	the [odor] of decomposition.
7.	Q.  Where I started from was, [haoma] as, cannabis as
8.	teacher.  And I wanted to learn, if you could spend a minute
9.	or so to talk about how that concept relates to your first
10.	experience with cannabis.
11.	A.   It caused me to sit back and contemplate where I was 
12.	headed, you know, what had I been doing, and had I dropped out
13.	of school in the 11th grade and not got any education.  And it 
14.	put me back on [the] right course, that very first experience with
15.	it.
16.	Q.  Now at the that that happened you were in the 11th
17.	grade, you didn't have a notion that this was part of a 
18.	religious process?
19.	A.  Not at all, no, not at all.  That's why myself,
20.	personally, today I believe that cannabis is a converter.
21.	There's a lot of people out there that are on a religious path
22.	without even being aware that they are, and when they finally
23.	find that religious path is when they've got to the point
24.	where they give up all other substances that they might be
25.	using as a partying tool, you know.  It becomes no longer a

1.	everything, he lost everything he had, including his family.
2.	We seen it destroy lots of people.
3.	Q.  What about you?
4.	A.  Me? No.
5.	Q.   Well, did you ever have - -
6.	A.    I've used other substances, yes, I have quite a bit
7.	of experience with other substances, but I had ran through
8.	those while I was in the military.   I had done
9.	methamphetamines, and it was, basically destroyed my mind and
10.	ability to even think.  I would have delusional thoughts and
11.	thinking people were ripping me off or doing things they
12.	weren't doing.
13.	Q.  What brought you back?
14.	A.    Cannabis.
15.	Q.   Since that time have you used any other substance?
16.	A.    No.
17.	Q.    Do you drink?
18.	A.    Well, I have drank on a couple of different
19.	occasions, that's one of my greatest fallbacks I have. I
20.	don't drink any more, I would not have my wife.
21.	Q.  Since when do you not drink?
22.	A.   I haven't drank in over ten years
23.	Q.   You've referred to this at various times during your
24.	testimony, but I just want to briefly touch on another notion
25.	that you expressed to me, and that is cannabis as healer. And