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1. we heard yesterday about the close relationship between the 2. spiritual and the, that aspect of things. Is that a part of 3. your belief system as well? 4. A. Cannabis is the healer, it's the teacher, protector, 5. provider. The protector is the healing aspect of it, it 6. protects you from all illnesses, anaerobic, or bacterias due 7. to bacterias, streptococcal bacteria, it's basically a 8. protector in that aspect. So that's where that phrase - - what 9. I believe, what I've learned from other great religions, and 10. some philosophical religious philosophies, that the best 11. religion is one that can be summarized into the fewest words. 12. Q. Okay. You'll probably get some argument from other 13. religionist, but I'm not going to go there. 14. A. Well, as far as the [Mantra], the basis to live by, it's 15. easier to live by a few words that have a broad connotation. 16. Q. Okay, I understand. I think we've spent a lot of 17. time talking about the derivations of your basic beliefs, and I 18. want to talk a little bit about the Church of Cognizance and 19. the way that it functions. And I would like to start with one 20. of the more mundane things that we have to deal with, and that 21. is that we have to make money and be able to buy food and 22. provide for our families. How, other than the Social Security 23. disability income that you receive, how - - This is a full-time 24. job for you; isn't it? 25. A. Oh, I'm, I spent all my life researching it, it's a
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1. love, basically without an income I would do this. 2. MR. MARTINEZ: All right. Well, what sort of income 3. do you have? 4. A. A little over 800, $870 or so dollars a month. But 5. we also, we have some ceramics that we make an sell. We make 6. a replica of a lamp that's abundant in the Middle East that's 7. an oil lamp, hemp oil lamp. It has a hemp wick. It's pretty 8. much a replica of the size, I have one in my briefcase. 9. Q. Well, we're going to probably break shortly for 10. another proceeding, so I'm going to ask you, during that 11. break, to get that so we can have a look at it. What do you 12. do with those things? 13. THE COURT: This is probably a good time to break. 14. So we'll be in recess on this matter and move on to the motion 15. to suppress which was filed by Defendant Butts. 16. (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 17. THE COURT: Please be seated. We're back on the 18. record in U.S.A. versus Quaintance, and we're back on the 19. motion to dismiss. 20. Mr. Quaintance, you may take your seat. 21. Actually, before we come back to the motions to 22. dismiss, I don't think - - back to the motion to suppress - - 23. you all indicated hat the videotape was stipulated to. 24. MR. MARTINEZ: I thought I did, Your Honor, but if I 25. didn't I apologize.
1. THE COURT: Well, you did say it was stipulated to 2. but I don't think I formally accepted it into evidence. And I 3. just want to make sure that our record's clear. 4. MR. MARTINEZ: Yes, Your Honor. 5. MS. SEDILLO: Yes, Your Honor. The defense has no 6. objection to, was it S-1? 7. MR. MARTINEZ: It was S-1. 8. THE COURT: Government's Exhibit S-1 or 1-S? 9. MR. MARTINEZ: Yes, Your Honor. 10. THE COURT: All right, with that - - 11. MR. MARTINEZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 12. THE COURT: Is admitted. Okay, I apologize, we are 13. now back on the motion to dismiss. 14. CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 15. BY MR. ROBERT: 16. Q. Mr. Quaintance, when we left off we were getting 17. ready to start talking about things that you do to supplement 18. your disability income, and I asked for you to get some things 19. from your case, which you appear to have done. Would you tell 20. us what you have? 21. A. This is the primary one that we can make $30 on each 22. one of these here that we make. 23. Q. What is that? 24. A. This is an oil lamp. It's a replica of the lamps 25. from the Middle East. There's a common dig that people find
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1. over there, they will have several hundreds of these in a 2. house they make real regular. Of course, the ones over there 3. aren't glazed, but they're exactly this size here. It has an 4. oil wick in the front, and you fill it with hemp seed oil and 5. it puts off a nice bright flame without any smoke filling the 6. house, light enough to light this courtroom here we could 7. probably walk around in. Like I say, we get $30 apiece for 8. these. 9. Q. Where do you sell them? 10. A. The members of the church come by, we sell them on 11. the Internet. Can't hardly hang onto them, they go just about 12. as fast as we got a load, when people find out we're firing a 13. load they are pretty much presold. 14. Q. Okay. How many do you suppose you sell during a 15. year? 16. A. Oh, maybe 30, it's not a large thing, you know. Mary 17. and I have not done a lot of this here lately, really, because 18. we're getting a little old and our eyes and stuff. In the 19. last six months we haven't done anything. 20. Q. You have some other things there in front of you, 21. tell us a little bit about the things you've got. 22. A. In researching I like to get my hands into what I'm 23. doing, and the hemp weaving has been something that has been 24. all throughout culture and history as well. And both of these 25. types of [weave] are, were to demonstrate different types of
1. weaving without a loom, or prior to looming. This one here is 2. a Swiss bias [weave] that I have made for a bookmark that 3. actually was entered in the fair, and I took second place on 4. it, Swiss bias. You pull it this way here, it only stretches, 5. it doesn't give any more, and this right here you can see it's 6. real loose. 7. Q. Do you sell those? 8. A. Not really. This one here is, was to demonstrate the 9. clothing or manufacture of clothing in early days. You have 10. four strands on one hand, three strands on the other hand, and 11. then this is hooked across the point and you just walk them 12. down your finger and pull the fourth one across and give it a 13. stretch like this and walk the other ones down and across. 14. Early methods of weaving, basically. Like I say, I like to 15. get hands on into my research and see how people did it. 16. Q. And any of the weaving stuff at all, is any of that 17. for sale? 18. A. We do have a loom at home, we sell hemp twines and 19. stuff like that. 20. Q. Mr. Quaintance, I'm going to hand you some 21. photographs that - - I'm sorry, excuse me - - I've marked 22. Defendant's Exhibit 6-A through 6-G. I want you to look at 23. those briefly and tell me if you recognize them. 24. A. Yes. This is of our property there in Pima, Arizona, 25. what we call our family-oriented monastic order. It's where
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1. our, we and our children live. It's what the government had 2. referred to in their affidavit as a compound because they said 3. it was completely surrounded by tires and fence. And early 4. into the affidavit for, long before they searched our place 5. they called it a compound. 6. Q. All right. Who took those pictures? 7. A. These pictures here myself, I took. 8. Q. When were they taken? 9. A. Just a couple of weeks ago, I would say, a week or 10. two ago. It was right after you and your investigator had 11. come over to our place. 12. Q. Okay. And is there much difference between the way 13. the place looks in those pictures and the way that it looked 14. back in February and March? 15. A. No; exactly how it looks, yes. 16. MR. ROBERT: Your Honor, I offer Defendant's Exhibit 17. 6-A through 6-G 18. MR. MARTINEZ: No objection, Your Honor. 19. THE COURT: All right. Defendant's Exhibits 6-A 20. through G are admitted. 21. MR. ROBERT: Thank you. 22. Q. (Mr. Robert) Mr. Quaintance, this is, as you say, 23. what you have characterized as your family oriented - - 24. A. Monastic order. 25. Q. - - monastic order. That leads me to some questions
1. about how you're organized in the Church of Cognizance. Is 2. there another name by which you call this place, your home? 3. A. It's an individual orthodox member monastery. 4. Q. Is there another name? 5. A. It's a cultural information center of the Church of 6. Cognizance. 7. Q. How many other cultural information centers are 8. there? 9. A. One other. 10. Q. Where is that located? 11. A. Hawaii. 12. Q. Hawaii, that is the place where enlightened 13. [Cogniscenti] Daniel [Jeffrey] lives? 14. A. Yes, sir. 15. Q. Is he the [Enlightened Cogniscenti] who operates the 16. other cultural information center? 17. A. Yes, sir. 18. Q. Let's take a moment now and talk about that 19. photograph that the government will now undoubtedly try to get 20. in through you on cross-examination, which is identified as 21. Defendant's 1, which you've seen; right? 22. A. Yes. 23. Q. That is - - tell the Court where that picture is found 24. relative to your own website? 25. A. At the top of every page there is like banner ads a
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1. lot of website pages have banner ads on them. And that is one 2. link that pops up, every time you open a page a different 3. banner ad pops up into that place, [each] one of them takes [you] out to 4. another website. Of course, there's a much older one that was 5. one of our original websites. One goes out to [Pot] TV up in 6. Canada, which has done a lot of religious research. That's 7. where Chris is from, he runs that TV group up there. He's a, 8. "Marijuana Magic [and] Religion" is one of his books that he's 9. written. He's quite the studied author - - 10. Q. Okay. Let's talk about the link, through, to Daniel 11. [Jeffrey's.] And the photograph that you've seen that's a part 12. of Government's Exhibit 1, is that on your website? 13. A. No, that's on Daniel Jeffrey's website. 14. Q. Do you have any control over what's on Daniel 15. Jeffrey's website? 16. A. No, I do not have any of what's on his website. 17. That's what an individual is. 18. Q. Okay. Tell me what you know about that photograph. 19. A. I know that the photograph, if it doesn't have 20. wording that goes with it, it's kind of taken out of context, 21. because his entire website is kind of his message. He's got 22. his own spiritual kind of a link going on there. That 23. photograph is of some children in Africa on a train, I believe 24. it is, wherein the African culture, the families there, it's 25. from the youngest child on up, uses cannabis. And I believe
1. the saying under the picture is something like "Where children 2. are told the truth and live with love they learn not to play 3. with guns," or something to that effect. And he's, he's 4. basically, I think, when I've asked him about it before, he 5. said he was just depicting the harmless nature of cannabis, 6. not that we ourselves, you know, we wish to mitigate 7. government's fears because we understand government does have 8. a fear regarding child endangerment. And that's why we limit 9. it in our pledge, that people have to agree  to - - keep it 10. in a secure, secluded area, for one thing. 11. Q. That's a pretty scary picture, though, for somebody 12. here that doesn't want children to be either getting access to 13. tobacco; right? 14. A. In our culture it would be a very scary picture. 15. Q. All right. What's your opinion about that 16. photograph? 17. A. My opinion about the photograph? In this culture, I 18. wouldn't have it on my website. I'm the one that wrote the 19. Church of Cognizance [Introduced] pamphlet and the pledge, and I 20. put in there, "In order to mitigate government's fears we 21. agree to keep our marijuana locked in a secure, secluded area 22. and we will not introduce minors into the religion.["] 23. Q. All right. Let's talk a little bit about that. What 24. do you do in order to secure the cannabis that you come into 25. possession of from time to time?
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1. A. We - - our house is a four-bedroom house, Mary's and 2. mine, and right next to our bedroom, where we're clear down a 3. hall past the kitchen, you've got to go clear, from the main 4. entrance door you go past the first bedroom, you go into the 5. living room area where the computer and the offices area of the 6. church is, and there's a bedroom off of that side of the 7. living room; then go through the kitchen and down another 8. hall, and off to the left-hand side of that hall there is a 9. bedroom that has a lock on the door and the sanctuary [sign] on the 10. door that has a locking knob on it so that nobody can get into 11. that area. 12. Q. All right. 13. A. And that's where the scales and the other stuff was 14. taken out of as well. 15. Q Okay. I'll come back to that in a moment. What 16. control do you have over other people's - - well, let's go back 17. to the notion of the individual orthodox 18. A. Member monastery. 19. Q. Member monastery, I apologize, I'm starting to go 20. fuzz out a little bit myself. How, what nature of control do 21. you have over what other people, in their own monastery 22. locations, do with the cannabis in their possession? 23. A. I, like I say, they sign a pledge. But the thing is, 24. we are not called like a David Koreshian cult, or something 25. like that, where you have this one leader instructing and
1. telling everybody "You do it my way," you know. And it's, 2. we're a family oriented monastic orders. We believe reuniting 3. the family unit, and as Anna had testified, from the very 4. oldest person, I think instead of just tossing [them out] to an old 5. folks home, we believe they should be taken care of by the 6. family. That middle age group, like Mary and my age, would be 7. taking care of the elder beyond us. Our kid's age, which is 8. happening in our monastery, are out working and they're 9. bringing in income into our family oriented monastic order 10. while Mary and I watch the kids while they're working. And 11. you know, out doing that aspect of the thing. The kids love 12. it because they're getting to know our family. Mary and I can 13. teach them our family's history better than some baby-sitter 14. can, or something like that. 15. Q. All right. But you do have some rules; right? For 16. example, a person who is a member of your church is not 17. supposed to engage in commerce with respect to cannabis? 18. A. Yes. 19. Q. So if you find out - - you just said that you don't 20. have the sort of Koreshian hierarchy where somebody's telling 21. you what to do, but if you discover somebody that you believe 22. to be genuine, sincere member of the church, is actually out 23. there selling dope, what would you do? 24. A. We would excommunicate them. We have an 25. excommunication process is also described in our Church of
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1. Cognizance introduced pamphlet. When somebody does something 2. out of line that would bring scorn to our church, you might 3. say, because they're not acting within the guidelines of the 4. pledge that we put there, any member that's aware of that can 5. inform the cultural information center. We send out a letter 6. process to every registered member informing them of the vote 7. that's going to be taken, and a two-thirds vote by the 8. registered members would result in an excommunication of that 9. member from the church. 10. Q. Has that ever happened? 11. A. We're in the process of it. 12. Q. Right now? 13. A. On one member, yes. 14. Q. Okay. 15. A. And we had one lady, we was getting in the process of 16. excommunicating her and she voluntarily withdrew. 17. Q. What do you do to try and find out whether your 18. members are abiding by the rules that you set out in, for 19. example, the pamphlet the Church of Cognizance introduced? 20. A. Well, with monasteries across 14 states in America, 21. it's kind of hard to monitor that, you know. We're not, we 22. are not out proselytizing, or whatever, people, you know, 23. they're already utilizing and stuff when they come to the 24. church and they believe that there's another higher level that 25. we offer as a religious aspect to it, they're recogniz â€“
1. they're finding out the main thing in life is extending life 2. and to live as long life as possible, and that's one of the 3. primary blessings we teach, which science is supporting us in 4. that as well, and the Avesta, that's what it says all the way 5. through, is ["Haoma] the [averter] of death.["] 6. Q. All right. Suppose somebody joins, somebody happens 7. across your website and they see that this is a church that 8. believes that the use of cannabis is a protected religious 9. freedom and, in fact, the person who is looking at the website 10. is somebody who simply wants to be able to use marijuana 11. recreationally and doesn't have the same spiritual perspective 12. that you do, how do you try to weed out people that want to 13. get the paperwork that you guys, the certificate of the 14. religion? 15. A. It really seems to be regulating itself. We're a 16. very small organization compared to the size of, like THC 17. Ministries has over 7,000 members because it's, they have 18. got an open on line registration form, and like that, and they 19. pretty much let anybody believe anything they want to believe. 20. And a lot of people tend to have a hard time grasping what we 21. believe in our church. Everybody I've spoken with, they, a 22. lot, most people really call me, we visit for a little while 23. before they join because they have a hard time conceiving that 24. deity and plant concept. 25. Q. All right. What if you talk to somebody and you're
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1. not convinced that you, that they're not just using this as a 2. ruse, as a subterfuge? 3. A. Well, we've had some come through our â€“ Okay, 4. where we live there's like 40 member monasteries, so 5. I do perform some priestly functions there in the valley, And 6. we've had some of those members, they come by and you can tell 7. that they are really more into a lot of drugs than a sincere 8. religious practice, and they don't get anything, you know, 9. they, other than a little blessing, preaching about 10. intoxicants and what they can do to you and your life. We 11. don't want to cast anybody out, that's not the purpose of the 12. church, is to try to, you know, bring people around to the 13. right way of life. But there's two paths, the broad path 14. [to] destruction and the narrow path [to] righteousness. 15. Q. All right. Well, let's talk about something you just 16. said. You said that somebody who clearly is not on the right 17. path doesn't get anything, as you put it. I assume what you 18. mean by that is that they're not going to walk away from there 19. with any cannabis? 20. A. Exactly. 21. Q. So that assumes that there are people who come to 22. your monastery, your cultural information center, who do 23. receive cannabis? 24. A. Yes; as a sacrament, yes. 25. Q. Do you sell it to them?
1. A. No. 2. Q. Tell me how that works? 3. A. Well, sometimes, it's sort of like a Native American 4. roadman, put it this way, we do not profit out of it. The 5. Native American roadman of the Native American Church, he goes 6. down to Texas, he purchases it from the licensed distributor 7. in Texas, it cost him money to purchase that. He goes and 8. distributes it around to the different centers where they're 9. performing ceremonies and he is reimbursed his fee or expense 10. for what it cost him to go there and pick it up. And we, if 11. we have to purchase it, then we would have to be reimbursed, 12. not always, we do have a couple of medical people that we 13. provide freely to, as well as provide them with hemp seeds, 14. which cost us $10 a pound. 15. Q. All right. So you solicit donations from people to 16. reimburse you for the cost? 17. A. Yes, we do that as well. We['ve] receive[d] several 18. donations. There's been a few people that have donated some, 19. a thousand, $2,000 because they believe in what we're into, 20. without receiving any cannabis. They just like, you know, the 21. religious organization. I perform weddings and officiate at 22. funerals, I do counseling, Mary does counseling people with 23. problems. 24. Q. Mostly to members of the church or to â€“ 25. A. Yeah, primarily. But if a person, you know, needed
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1. or we thought[,] my uncle, he's not a member of the church but I 2. do a lot of counseling with him right now. He's going through 3. a divorce and he's having kind of a hard time accepting it. 4. He's 80 years old, he's a deacon of the Baptist Church there 5. in town; he's very supportive of us. 6. Q. A deacon of a Baptist church is supportive of your 7. organization? 8. A. Yes, sir. He believes this is a very sincere thing 9. and he can't understand why we're where we are. 10. Q. Okay. But he's not a member of the church? 11. A. He is not a member of the church but he comes by 12. every day and speaks with me. 13. Q. All right. The notion of having to buy the cannabis 14. brings me to Timothy Kripner, who, among other things, says 15. that there was a period of time during which he would sell you 16. cannabis; is that correct? 17. A. That is correct. 18. Q. And where was he living during that time? 19. A. He was living in Tucson. 20. Q. And tell us about how it was that you bought cannabis 21. from Timothy Kripner. 22. A. Well, at first we started, it was just me and Mary, 23. and we purchased like a half a pound, like he was talking 24. about, or quarter pound. It was fairly expensive, but it was 25. cheaper than we were trying to get in smaller amounts
1. locally. And when you're buying smaller amounts locally, 2. every time you buy it you're taking a chance that it might be 3. laced with angle dust, or mold, mildew, there's a lot of 4. contaminants in it, and we don't like that. That's why we do 5. try to go with larger amounts, th[at way] we're assured 6. I[t']s contaminate free. It's a littler safer for everybody. 7. Q. Okay. I'll come back to that as well. When you 8. bought from Timothy Kripner, was that the sort of situation 9. where you necessarily need to seek compensation from people? 10. A. Yes. That would have been the case. But, actually, 11. that was like Mary and me. And then there was another member 12. who had been going to the Tucson area and purchasing as well, 13. and they said, "Hey, while you're going down there to do that, 14. Timothy had a better price, would you mind going ahead and let 15. us go [in] with you and see whe[ther] we'll get a larger amount.["] 16. Q. Yes. Were you taking the cannabis that you bought 17. from Mr. Kripner and selling it to sustain your lifestyle? 18. A. No, like I said, that amount, that's a personal 19. amount for Mary and myself. 20. Q. All right. I'm jumping around here, but these things 21. lead me to other places. Where this leads me right now is to 22. the quantity that was found in the car that Mr. Kripner was 23. driving in February of this year, it was 172 pounds. Do you 24. know where that came from? 25. A. Yes, it c[a]me from the Guadalupe Monastery of the
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1. Church of Cognizance in Mexico. 2. Q. And did you pay for that? 3. A. No, that was a donation. 4. Q. What about the - - there's an allegation that there 5. was 300 pounds or more in the vehicle that was driven by Mr. 6. Butts. 7. A. The same location. 8. Q. The monastery in Mexico? 9. A. Yes, sir. 10. Q. It didn't cost you anything? 11. A. No, it didn't. If it did we would probably - - if we 12. were in the commercial market we would probably be hiding . 13. Q. I'm sorry? 14. A. If we were in the commercial market and having to pay 15. for something like that, and we'd be hiding, you know, I would 16. believe that people would be very upset with losing a large 17. amount. 18. Q. I see. Okay. 19. A. We realize there is a commercial market out there, a 20. black market that's a very profitable black market compared to 21. the actual value of the cannabis itself. It grows five times 22. as much per acre as common hay would grow, and hay, you can 23. get 100-pound bale for about $10. So were there not a black 24. market, that's about its value of production. 25. Q. So it doesn't cost very much more than $10 an acre to
1. grow a fairly substantial amount of cannabis? 2. A. Correct. 3. Q. There were people [a]re people who would say, "Okay fine, Mr. 4. Quaintance, maybe we can accept the notion that you have this 5. Belief and that you want to use cannabis, but what in the 6. World, what in the world do you need 172 pounds, or 300 7. Pounds, or 500 pounds of cannabis for?" 8. A. Well, 172 pounds is, number one, it would really be 9. nice to go to the ma symbol of Chinese to explain the cannabis 10. is stored, it's like an annual crop. 11. Q. Right, you told us about that earlier. 12. A. Yeah. And so you're, you gather it, and you store 13. it, and you utilize it. That amount there is not enough for 14. barely eight people for a year in a daily usage of haoma, if 15. you're mixing is into the haoma, if you're making it into 16. Haoma. 17. Q. Consuming cannabis as haoma, is that â€“ 18. A. That's a larger amount to receive the same effect 19. because your body doesn't process it in the same fashion. 20. Q. In order to engage in the sacramental practice, as 21. you envision, as you've described it for the Court, what would 22. be an appropriate annual amount for any individual? 23. A. About 20 to 25 pounds. 24. Q. Per year? 25. A. Per person, per year.
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1. Q. So 250 pounds would be enough for 10 people? 2. A. Exactly. 3. Q. And, of course, when you receive this donation of 4. cannabis from the monastery in Mexico, who determined what the 5. quantity was? 6. A. Him, he's sending it up, I don't tell him how much I 7. want or anything. 8. Q. All right. 9. A. And it's, you know, the larger one that Joe had, it 10. was on its way to a wellness center, but we do have some 11. medicinal people that we take care of as well. The seed, we, 12. there's a lot of people in the wellness center, they're called 13. hemp clinics in California, and a lot of the medicinal states, 14. instead of marijuana they got their different names for them 15. in the different states, I guess; they use cannabis only. 16. Cannabis only prolongs the life a little bit, but not much. 17. It makes the death easier, I guess would be a better way to 18. say it, it doesn't really necessarily reverse the illness. 19. Q. I'm not understanding what you mean by cannabis 20. only. 21. A. If you're just, [using it] without the seeds and making it in a 22. drink; like we're trying to do it in the haoma-type thing, the 23. haoma is a nutritional substance that actually has a lot of 24. healing properties in itself. They had in, Czechoslovakia 25. they documented over 30 years of being the only food items
1. capable of successfully treating tuberculosis curing 2. tuberculosis basically. 3. Q. All right. Which raises another question, Mr. 4. Quaintance. It occurs to me, you know California has a 5. medical marijuana law now that basically allows people with a 6. medical need to get a recommendation from a doctor to possess 7. and use cannabis? 8. A. Yes. 9. Q. It sounds to me, based on what you've described your 10. own condition to be, that you might qualify for such a thing. 11. A. That may be so. 12. Q. Why not just simplify your life and move to 13. California? 14. A. Well, we like it here in Arizona. Arizona has a 15. medical - - we passed it, actually, decriminalization law, 16. there in Arizona the legislature, [took back] people passed it and 17. the legislature changed it. 18. Q. Don't misunderstand my question, you're here in this 19. courtroom because you're being prosecuted for the possession 20. of this cannabis. 21. A. Well, marijuana is, religion are your first healers. 22. The monasteries is where all your first hospitals came out of. 23. The Roman Catholic Church had St. Luke, St. Anthony, St. 24. Elizabeth; they train their medical doctors, they use their 25. methods of healing the people they're helping healing. And
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1. the way I read the law, there's exclusions in the law of 2. Arizona statutes, anyway, that say that you do not have to be 3. licensed, there's an exemption from licensing a physician if 4. its healing with hands, prayers or herbs, and this is an herb, 5. it's a healing herb. 6. Q. I'm trying to - - the people sitting at this table 7. don't care very much about Arizona law. What about federal 8. law? 9. A. Federal law, I would hope that they have some sort of 10. an exemption for religious healing. 11. Q. Well, you don't just hope. What do you know, what's 12. your understanding of what the law says in that regard? 13. A. Well, I believe that religion is protected, and 14. healing is one part of the religion. It's, healing is what 15. religion is about. 16. Q. Where is religion protected in the law? 17. A. Well, in the First Amendment, for one place. The 18. Congress shall write no law respecting the establishment of 19. religion. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The 20. Religious Land Use [and Institutionalized] Persons Act, and the 21. International [Religious Freedom] Act, which was the last one 22. about, Congress has had to write three times. They wrote the 23. RFRA in '93, they wrote [RLUIPA] in '96. '98 they come along, 24. they wrote the International Religious Freedom Act, stating we 25. got to understand religious tolerance here. It's basically
1. people have the freedom to have a religion. 2. Q. Okay. Let's talk about some of the things that were 3. found. There was a search done on your house after you were 4. arrested; is that right? 5. A. Yes, sir, they were pretty awful with it. 6. Q. What did they take? 7. A. There was nothing found there at our house other than 8. some burlap bags that we denied they being there. In fact, 9. actually it's the exact same number of burlap bags that were 10. taken from us there in Lordsburg, showed up there, and there's 11. no accounting for that, why just that number would be there. 12. Q. One of the thing that showed up in the inventory was 13. a scale, which I think I've heard mentioned in this hearing. 14. Tell me about the scale. 15. A. The scales? Well, I've used those for years and 16. years, clear back in the day of my body work. I didn't throw 17. them away when I got done with them. 18. Q. Car body work? 19. A. Yes. You use it [mixing] paint colors. You go to a 20. little microfilm for the year of a car, and the color code on 21. it, and it tells you so many grams of this color and so many 22. grams of this tint, you know it's tints that you put into your 23. basic white paint, so that you can blend it in for the number 24. of years for the age of the car. 25. MR. MARTINEZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object at
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1. this time. I think what we're arguing now is the case in 2. chief, the actual case. My understanding is we were just 3. arguing, we were just presenting the facts on the motion to 4. dismiss the indictment. Talking about the scales and the 5. burlap bags, and now we're giving explanations as to the case, 6. the issue of guilt or innocence. 7. MR. ROBERT: My understanding has - - that's sort of 8. ironic considering Mr. Quaintance has been confessing to 9. crimes for the last half hour but my understanding is, as one 10. of the things the government's saying, is that that scale is 11. evidence, not of a religious use, but of commerce. I think 12. Mr. Quaintance has the right to explain in contradiction to 13. that assertion. 14. MR. MARTINEZ: It wasn't in the dismissal motion. 15. THE COURT: I think that there was mention in the 16. submissions about [a] scale. And I think it's fair for the 17. defendant to cover this territory. I will ask, however, that 18. you try to focus your question so that the answers are a 19. little bit more focused as opposed to rather lengthy 20. narratives that we're getting. 21. MR. ROBERT: All right, I'll try to move things 22. along, Your Honor. 23. Q. (By Mr. Robert) What else do you use the scale for? 24. A. I was doing some work with a magnetic motor control 25. rotation, and I was measuring the forces of energy. I have
1. magnets glued to one side of it. 2. Q. One side of the scale? 3. A. One side of the scale there, yeah. It was a 4. dialogram, that would be the only house dialogram. The other 5. scales we have are postage scales, and I do buy and sell 6. things on E-Bay, we have an E-Bay account, and you have to 7. weigh your things. And, of course, if you were purchasing the 8. sacrament you would want to know that you're getting what you 9. paid for. 10. Q. If who was purchasing the sacrament? 11. A. We. 12. Q. Okay. You're not talking about - - do you use that 13. scale to measure cannabis to sell it off? 14. A. No[.] [W]hen I was doing formulations of coming up with 15. what we thought would be a proper amount in your bud-to-seed 16. ratio in the soma haoma. 17. Q. So in determining the ratio of components for haoma, 18. you use that to measure weight? 19. A. Yes. 20. Q. All right. We've heard mention of, I think the 21. number mentioned was five car rentals that were accomplished 22. in your household over a period of time. What do you know 23. about that? 24. A. Well, for awhile there that, the car that the 25. government confiscated on us, I had the heads off of it
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1. because the block had blown a head gasket. I had replaced 2. it. It was down for a couple of months. Two or three months 3. we rented a couple of cars, a couple of times there when - - 4. we've never had very dependable vehicles. And if we have to 5. go out of town to Tucson we rent a car. My daughter has 6. rented a few of those, it's her name that's on them because 7. she's taking her child there. We've taken my grandson down to 8. Tucson on a couple of different occasions. There, those cars, 9. if you'll look at the rental agreement on them, they're local 10. use only, you can't take them out of state. 11. Q. Okay. 12. A. Arizona doesn't allow out-of-state transportation 13. with them. 14. Q. Are you familiar with the [Meyers] case? 15. A. Briefly. 16. Q. We've talked about that, hadn't we? 17. A. Yes, it's the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals 18. standards of what qualifies as a religion, or what was 19. established. I don't know that it's proper to say that the 20. government has established what's a religion or not, but 21. that's what it has been determined that you have to come up. 22. Q. Let's talk about those criteria that - - and I'm not 23. going to argue the point now. 24. A. I make that point to as, if I get a little confused 25. right now, I do have the problem I was explaining to you the
1. other night about my pancreatitis. I go into sugar [lows] and 2. it causes confusion sometimes, so I feel a little confused. 3. Q. Are you doing okay right now? 4. A. Kind of sweating a little bit, and adrenal gland 5. feels a little large. 6. Q. Will you let me know if you feel you can't answer 7. questions? 8. A. Yes. 9. Q. All right. Thank you? 10. A. I'll try to. 11. Q. I want to go down this list of things that the 12. Tenth Circuit, in [Meyers], says should be the criteria for 13. determining what a religion is. And again, I'm doing this by 14. stipulating that we agree that that criteria is [in]appropriate, 15. but let's talk about it. One of the things that that court 16. said was whether, that religious belief often deals with 17. questions of life or death and the purpose of life, 18. fundamental and ultimate questions having to deal with deep 19. and imponderable matters. Would you briefly, without going 20. into a long dissertation, tell the Court how the Church of 21. Cognizance meets that criteria? 22. A. Deep and imponderable [matters]? That's like how far 23. out is out, or just - - 24. Q. Well, let's narrow it down to the purpose of life, 25. the nature of life.
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1. A. The purpose of life is to live a good life and help 2. others. You start as a seed and you grow from that point, and 3. you expand in knowledge and wisdom and, hopefully, on a right 4. path, a narrow path, to the longevity, to the longest life 5. that you can live. 6. Q. In many religious traditions, when somebody dies, 7. remember we talked about this with Dr. Pruitt, when somebody 8. dies the religious traditions believe that a soul lives 9. eternally. And in some religious traditions there's a heaven 10. or a hell, or a place that the soul goes to spend that 11. eternity. Tell us if, tell us what your religious beliefs 12. talk about in terms of life after death, if any? 13. A. At that time - - when I was younger I believed in a 14. heaven and a hell, it was kind of a scare tactic of religion 15. in my eyes, and today I seek the truth in life, and I don't 16. see that there is an after life. I don't believe that I 17. should go out and commit atrocities during this life, and by 18. the faith and belief in something else, then all of a sudden 19. I'm protected and granted eternal life in another realm. 20. Some members believe in that, that part of the 21. individual, it's our individual orthodox members monasteries, 22. they have the right to their own individual belief in that 23. respect. We each have the belief, though, in the teacher, 24. provider, protector, and we unite together. That is what 25. forms [the] Church of Cognizance, is those individual orthodox
1. monasteries joining together. I don't tell them or dictate to 2. them whether they have to believe in a heaven or a hell, or 3. anything to that aspect. 4. Q. All right. The next thing that the court says in 5. [Meyers] is it talks about metaphysical beliefs, in other words, 6. that there are spiritual forces in the world. 7. A. I have that. 8. Q. All right, let's talk about that a little bit. 9. I believe in a karma aspect. Basically, if you have, 10. if you have a lot of people thinking bad about you you're 11. going to get bad - - in fact, I believe I touched on that 12. earlier actually. I believe that would be the metaphysical is 13. the karma aspect. And Mary and I, we, cannabis has helped us 14. focus before. When I was in college we got a book on how to 15. develop your mind and it gave a little experiment to use in 16. spinning a piece of paper by folding it in corners and putting 17. it on a little axle-type thing to remove the resistance so you 18. can build faith in what you're trying to do because faith can 19. move mountains. We were able to do that. 20. Q. I asked you about this another time, and I'll ask you 21. now, is cannabis or haoma an entity to which you pray to seek 22. intercession, for example, in - - 23. A. Yes, I have, all through this whole hearing I pray to 24. haoma to overwhelm the malice and [conquer] the lies. That is 25. one of the verses in the [Avesta] â€“
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1. Q. I'm sorry. 2. THE COURT: Both of you need to wait for the other to 3. finish speaking. I really would like to hear all of your 4. questions, just like I'd like to hear all of your answers. 5. MR. ROBERT: I'm sorry, Judge, I think it's getting 6. late in the day and I'm running right into his answers. 7. Q. (By Mr. Robert) The underlying question, I guess, is 8. do you believe that cannabis or haoma is in the nature of a 9. spiritual force that has the ability to accomplish things in 10. the physical world? 11. A. That's been my experience with it. I believe that it 12. is. When I ask for a [boon], it might be said, I quite often 13. receive an answer. This morning I was in the room and I got 14. up and said haoma, it, to me, I look at signs and things, and 15. I seen a sign that was telling me, you know, I'm going to be 16. with you in the courtroom today. 17. Q. All right. Well, the next thing that, the criterion 18. that is listed in this case is sort of titled "Moral or 19. Ethical system." I think you've talked about that a lot 20. today, but just, talk for just a moment about sort of 21. encapsulate, if you could, what the Church or Cognizance 22. believes is a moral or ethical system by which people should 23. live their lives, people that are members of the church. 24. A. Quite simply boils down to having good thought, 25. producing good words, producing good deeds. I incorporate
1. that into wedding ceremonies to advise the couples if they 2. want to have a long, happy married life, that they should 3. maintain good thoughts with their partner, and good [words] 4. [for] them, and do good deeds [for] them. And we believe 5. that any action that were to create a victim, you know, is a 6. punishable offense. 7. Q. Well, and some people would say, we look at more 8. traditional religions, for example, in the Christian 9. tradition, or I suppose even in the Judaic tradition, there 10. are the Ten Commandments; right? 11. A. Yes. 12. Q. There aren't even ten words in good thoughts, good 13. words, good deeds? 14. A. I believe it probably pretty well covers all Ten 15. Commandments. 16. Q. I suppose that it does. But one of the things it 17. doesn't do is provide a lot of specific guidance as to what 18. somebody should do, I think that was the point of - - 19. A. There's not much more than that inside the 20. Zoroastrian religion. As far as I've seen it, that's the 21. primary goal is there is teaching in every - - it's divided 22. into a lot of different groups there, but it's like written 23. over at different times, sort of like Matthew, Mark, Luke and 24. John are just different stories about the same era of Jesus' 25. teaching, it's, most of the books of the gospel is just a
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1. different era and using different words to describe the same 2. basic rewards that you can see from cannabis, that you can 3. expect from utilizing cannabis. 4. Q. All right. Some religious traditions say don't eat 5. pork, some say don't eat meat on Friday, others have other 6. dietary or clothing kinds of restrictions; does the Church of 7. Cognizance have anything of that nature? 8. A. There's no clothing restrictions. The Baptist Church 9. doesn't, the Methodist Church doesn't. I don't believe that's 10. mandatory that we would dictate how a person would dress. 11. Diet, we would prefer that everybody would eat hemp seeds, you 12. know, use haoma, because that is the ultimate diet of 13. longevity. 14. Q. The next thing that the [Meyers] court talks about is 15. what they call comprehensiveness of beliefs, and the idea 16. there is that the belief system isn't just directed at one 17. specific issue and, you know, possibly the government argues 18. here that you're only about cannabis, you're not here to talk 19. about anything else. You don't have answers to any other 20. questions, you're just here to talk about cannabis. And this 21. criterion talks about whether your cosmology, whether your 22. theology comprehends a broad array of human issues. Would you 23. talk a little bit about that? 24. A. I believe cannabis is pretty much at the center of a 25. broad array of human issues today that people are just not
1. recognizing. It's a provider of every substance, everything 2. needed by mankind is provided by that plant, that's why we 3. call it the provider, from clothing, to fuel, housing. I 4. could be building a house. If I planted one acre of that I 5. would be able to not only feed ten members of my family with 6. the seed off it, I would be able to break that down and 7. use the fiber to make the clothing for them to wear for years 8. to come, and I would be able to use what was left in building 9. a house. 10. Q. All right. And I actually think that some of what 11. you said already today covers a lot of, I think, what this 12. criterion addresses. The last thing that is mentioned in this 13. connection is the thing called accouterments of religion and, 14. you know, in their most obvious manifestations we're talking 15. about thing like churches, and steeples, and crosses, and 16. books, and the thing that are specifically mentioned here. 17. The first one is a prophet, teacher; would that be you? 18. A. That's what most of the members of the church 19. consider. I have had quite a few people, even not in ours but 20. in other religions of the cannabis movement, consider me a 21. prophet or speak of it that way. I consider myself an 22. enlightener. I try, I've always, all my working life I've 23. always been a leader of people, and I, I do a lot of 24. counseling and give people advice. 25. Q. You don't consider yourself a deity, do you?
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1. No, no way. 2. Q. Okay. In important writings, and obviously in the 3. Christian faith, the Bible, in the Islamic faith, Koran; what 4. serves that function in the Church of Cognizance? 5. A. Right now it's, as it says in our Church of 6. Cognizance introduced, our scripture is a work in constant 7. progress and we have the NeoZoroastrian Book of Cognizance 8. expanding volume of wisdom, cognizance of wisdom. And it 9. starts with the basics of what persons should know about the 10. religion. There's the [Yasna], translated by me, 9 through 11, 11. because 9 speaks basically of the benefits to be 12. derived; 10 speaks of what it looks like, where it's found; 11 13. is the praises to it. And that's the primary of the religion 14. there. But it's also, other, the Bible has good parts in it 15. that, and good lessons there as well to be learned, and 16. there's lots of things to be learned, and that's what we're 17. saying is, it's a work in constant progress. We shouldn't 18. stop our knowledge and just stagnate there, we have to grow. 19. Q. You gave me this thing that I'm holding here, which 20. I'm not introducing, as least at this point, and it contains a 21. bunch of different writings. This isn't what you consider to 22. be sort of the Bible of you church; is it? 23. A. Basically. 24. Q. Really? 25. A. Yes. It's the starting.
1. Q. It contains what? 2. A. It contains the, like I said, the [Yasna], 9 through 11 3. and then it contains the archeological discoveries. It 4. contains some writings of Dr. Robert Melamede, and the recent 5. scientific discoveries of cannabis's link to homeostasis of 6. the human body. Because our goal is truth, cognizance of the 7. truth, awareness of the truth. It's a truth-based religion 8. where we seek longevity, we seek to live the longest, 9. healthiest life within our means. It's narrow path to that. 10. Q. Now earlier in your testimony today you described a 11. bunch of things that you read in order to help you gain 12. knowledge of what you were seeking in terms of your spiritual 13. path. Would those thing also constitute writings on which 14. the Church of Cognizance - - 15. A. Yes. We promote all of the people to seek, 16. constantly seek things, and especially the enlightened 17. [Cogniscenti], ordained [Cogniscenti], when they find any of those, 18. anything that is truthful, not just hocus-pocus, but it has 19. great value in life, in extending life or making family better 20. in promotion of the family life, that should be brought into 21. the wellness or to our website cultural information center 22. We have [forums] up there for discussing those issues. So that's 23. actually part of our unit of facilitating life and of the 24. members. 25. Q. All right. The next thing that they talk about are
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1. gathering places and, of course, again, in the big religious 2. traditions there are big churches and cathedrals built to 3. honor God. You don't have a central place where the members 4. of the church congregate on a regular basis? 5. A. No, we do - - I have a Quaker background, up to my 6. grandfather, and it's like the Friends society, another 7. member's house is just as good a meeting place as anyplace 8. else. Our place is quite regularly used as a meeting place 9. because we do have a large living room, we've had 50 people in 10. there at a time. We performed a wedding there. We've got a 11. couple piano and organ and musical instruments, and stuff. We 12. are in the process of building a larger gathering area with 13. those tires, that's the purpose of those tires down there. We 14. started stacking them, because we don't believe in putting our 15. money into a fancy steeple and then let the people go hungry 16. in our area. We'd rather take care of the needs of those 17. people. 18. Q. Once again, drawing on the kinds of things that you 19. see in mainstream religious traditions, one of the criteria 20. under accouterments is keepers of knowledge, and like I said, 21. you talk about priests, and so did Dr. Pruitt, in 22. distinguishing faith-based and, excuse me, experience-based 23. religions, but keepers of knowledge, within your religious 24. tradition, within your religious context, again, would that be 25. you and the other enlightened [Cogniscenti]
1. A. Yes, that is the enlightened [Cogniscenti] level would 2. be keepers of knowledge. 3. Q. And you're not the only one of those? 4. A. I'm not the only one of those. 5. Q. Ceremonies and rituals, again, I'm sure that this 6. addresses the sorts of mainstream things that, you know, every 7. Sunday people go to church, some churches have Wednesday 8. service, some churches have regular baptismal, various 9. sacramental processes as a part of their tradition. 10. A. The Church of Cognizance['s] religion is a religion 11. that's practiced, put into practice, and that's what we do. 12. We put our religion into practice, and it's an 13. experienced-based - - I would, according to the way you were 14. describing the other day, I would classify it more as an 15. experienced-based religion. 16. Q. All right. Structure or organization, I think we've 17. pretty well covered that. Holidays, are there any holidays in 18. particular? 19. A. The [Sothic], there's a [Sothic] cycle, it's based upon 20. the Egyptian calendar. There's a point when the moon lines up 21. with the star [Sirius], which line up, which is the bright 22. morning star and lines up with the sun, morning sun, all 23. coming up, they're in perfect alignment. When that event 24. occurs, that is the time if you were to, in the ancient days 25. you would have planted your seeds, that's what the ancient
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1. magi - - and then they knew that was the time to put your seeds 2. in the ground, from seed to seeds. 3. Q. Okay. Does the Church of Cognizance celebrate that 4. as a holiday and, if so, how? 5. A. Not really. 6. Q. Okay. 7. A. That's an honored time. I mean a lot of people in 8. this religion do join together for [Solstices], I guess you call 9. them, the longest day of the year, the shortest day of the 10. year. 11. Q. Diet or fasting, again, a component of some but not 12. all religions. 13. A. Diet is the hemp seed, soma, haoma. 14. Q. All right. Appearance and clothing, is there any 15. particular manner of dress that is required or proscribed by 16. - - 17. A. Appropriate for the occasion. 18. Q. All right. And the last thing that's mentioned here. 19. again, this draws from sort of the structure of the more 20. generally recognized religions, is propagation, and by that I 21. think is meant proselytizing. In fact, the case says this is 22. sometimes called mission work, witnessing, converting or 23. proselytizing. I guess the idea is if somebody believes that 24. they have a powerful spiritual answer to questions, then it's 25. natural to want to communicate that answer to others, because
1. if it's the right answer I want everybody to know about it. 2. So to what extent is that a part of your - - 3. A. That's our website. That's the purpose of the 4. website. It speaks to the entire world. And this is getting 5. quite a bit of attention, really. It's had quite a few 6. visitors. 7. Q. Since the arrest or just generally? 8. A. Since the arrest, yes, a lot more than it had 9. before. 10. Q. All right. 11. MR. ROBERT: Your Honor, I â€“ 12. A. I speak with everybody that I come in contact with. 13. I do proselytize to that extent. That's why my uncle supports 14. us, because he believes in what I'm telling him is really 15. beneficial. 16. Q. Okay. 17. MR. ROBERT: I pass the witness, Your Honor. 18. THE COURT: Mr. Martinez? 19. MR. MARTINEZ: Yes, Your Honor. 20. CROSS-EXAMINATION 21. BY MR. MARTINEZ: 22. Q. Mr. Quaintance, you don't have a degree in 23. anthropology, do you? 24. A. No, Sir. 25. Q. Or linguistics?